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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the renal

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chambers

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incident that doesn't involve aliens at

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all it was completely silent

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it comes right over our heads he saw a

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classic flying saucer really standing in

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the clearing he turned over to my father

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and held his hand and he looked in his

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hello and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host and we're coming at you

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live like every wednesday at

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00 pm eastern standard time on the dark

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matter radio network

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if you're listening live please join us

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in the chat room at

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podcastufo.com we have another great one

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for you tonight alejandro rojas

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of open minds we'll be coming up with

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the news in a few tonight we have

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a guest his name is paul carr and

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you haven't heard of him before because

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paul is a space engineer

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who commented on our podcast ufo

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facebook page

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and it was real intriguing and so i

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contacted him and he said yes you'd be a

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guest

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and i think that you will find this very

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interesting for the next two weeks i am

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going on hiatus

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which uh actually forces alejandro rojas

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to go on hiatus too

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so we have a fill-in host uh long-time

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listeners will know him

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as our past co-host michael lauc great

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host and i'm sure he'll do a great job

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and he has two killer

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guests one i'm going to be talking about

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in just a minute stanton friedman next

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week

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strieber on and

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i'm almost jealous of that because i've

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tried to get whitley on for quite a

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while

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so he agreed to be on to talk about his

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new book

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and hey how you doing alejandro i am

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doing great how are you

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good good you know before we get into

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the news i wanted to talk to you about

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the exeter ufo festival i went to last

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week

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it was a lot of fun yeah how is that

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it's so interesting that in the last few

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years a few

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of these festivals have popped up and i

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think because roswell has gotten so much

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attention

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every year and they all seem to be doing

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very well

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yeah this one's been around a long time

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but it's really it really had

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quite a huge attendance it's one of the

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ones that are free

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and uh you know there was lots and lots

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of people i can't afford that

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you know right ryan mullahy talked me

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into coming and uh

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he arranged ryan muller he's a past uh

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past guest

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here he arranged a table i was sitting

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right between uh richard dolan

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and stan friedman and stan is looking

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great he's doing great

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and uh thanks good to hear yeah he looks

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really good i mean he lost a little

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weight he's

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looking great and if you look on my

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website you'll see a picture that i took

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of these two young

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maidens that went up and sat beside him

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and he's got a big smile on his face and

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kathy martin was there in the same room

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and i got to tell you richard dolan is

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doing this uh

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sort of sophisticated hippie look and

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i'm telling you it's working

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it works you like it yeah and the women

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were clamoring

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i would tell you yeah contact in the

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desert he had it he was full-on hippie

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though

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and uh there was a lot of controversy

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over uh

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thumbs up or thumbs down and i say what

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the heck man hey he looks comfortable

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yeah yeah so anyway it was it was a

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really good turnout

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and a lot of fun it was awesome so

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anyway what's going on for the news

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oh lots of news going on so i guess the

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first story i want to talk about

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has to do with the uh napa valley

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earthquake

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and it's kind of interesting just

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because it's a it's an example

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of uh you know this fighting of

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different phenomena that goes inside

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uh on inside the science community so

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there is something called earthquake

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lights right and uh

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it's it's just theorized and uh because

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people report

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seeing flashes of lights during

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earthquakes

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and there's a number of these over the

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over time and we've got a video on this

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story

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about this on our site but there's a

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scientist who works for

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seti uh at the mountain view in

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california and he says these

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are earthquake lights he's they've done

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some experiments to show that this is

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what's going on

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they often get reported as ufos uh which

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was the case

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in this napa valley incident as well

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but what's interesting is that there are

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other scientists who say no

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there is no such thing as earthquake

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lights so it's this struggle

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and you know the story goes uh follows

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this scientist who

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you know has been working on this in

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decades for decades talking about these

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earthquake lights you have in this case

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with the social media being so prevalent

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a lot of people tweeting hey i saw these

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flashes of lights and people then

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responding

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to those tweets saying oh i wasn't crazy

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you know

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i saw flashes of lights too uh other

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researchers say

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that perhaps these are are due to um

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electrical uh issues you know that the

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transformers exploding and stuff like

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that oh yeah so it's a highly contended

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and debated

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issue uh that often gets that

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you know blamed for uh or called ufos

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but what's interesting is

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some scientists are saying well uh it

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still remains a ufo because it's not an

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earthquake light because those don't

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exist

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so kind of interesting story yeah yeah

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now i

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i've actually seen a transformer blow up

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before and it was the brightest light

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i've ever seen

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but i've heard about earthquake lights

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and i think there really is such a

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phenomena

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and uh hopefully they'll uh you know

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it's kind of it's not

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quite as evasive as ufos because um

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it's seen every time or not every time

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but

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a lot of times when there's an

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earthquake people see it so i don't see

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why science doesn't take a look at that

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right and there was a study done

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recently and i referred to this where

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they kind of mirrored the conditions of

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an earthquake and they did find

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an electrical uh charge in the ground uh

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due to the friction i guess uh

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which lends some credibility to the

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possibility

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of earthquake light so really

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interesting uh to see the science

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debating like that

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yeah i agree and i say earthquake lights

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thumbs up yes they most likely they

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exist

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yeah along with bigfoot they're out

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there

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that's right someone's seeing something

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so a couple sightings too i wanted to

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talk about that

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are debated as to whether they've been

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solved or not so this is kind of cool

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so one of these is a ufo photo captured

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over

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cinnamon brow in england i love cinnamon

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so this one uh it's particularly

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interesting to me but

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this website this is cheshire we

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received a photo

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from a witness who said that uh he saw

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this object you know uh there were

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actually

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five of them he saw at one time but he

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only got one of them on camera

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he used he said he used his super zoom

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camera

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and you have this weird shaped object in

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the sky some great pictures

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well i looked in the comments you know

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trying to do some research as to what

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this might have been

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of course people said weather balloons

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things such as this but one lady said

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it's a dummy-shaped balloon and i'm

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thinking

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you know are they talking about a

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politician or something like that

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but no in england i guess they call

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pacifiers babies pacifiers

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dummies and so i looked this up and sure

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enough for baby showers and things there

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are

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these pacifier shaped balloons and

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i got a picture of one which is fairly

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similar so that's what it could be

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but some pretty striking photos so

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people will have to take a look there

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and see what they think themselves

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yeah that's a funny one uh yeah yeah

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gummy balloons

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who would have thunk yeah exactly that's

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what i was thinking i'm like yeah right

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a dummy balloon but it was similar

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and another one that i'm sure people are

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going to hear about because this is

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brand new today

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uh fox 2 in st louis missouri

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was uh taking some video of a

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lightning storm and something zipped

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past the camera

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so it's hot news ufo seen on video

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uh for this this new site but

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a couple of the producers took a look

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and they zoomed in and they feel that it

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is a

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bird that was zooming across the screen

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and was illuminated

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by the lightning i tend to agree with

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that but i'm sure there will be people

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contesting that analysis out there and

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saying hey you guys are just debunking

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these extraterrestrial craft again

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so yeah people take a look at this one

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this is another one that comes with some

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cool video

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and by the way all these can be found on

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openminds

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or you can go to our website our

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homepage and right in the show notes

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there'll be links to these directly to

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the stories yeah

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and the bird thing you know this is

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something that mark

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d'antonio talks about from mufon

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that a lot of times this happens you

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know people don't expect

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to uh see a bird after they take the

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video but they don't even notice it

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while they're taking the video

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yeah exactly that happens a lot so uh

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and i did want to cover one more that

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isn't debunked yet okay good

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so this is cool i know i tried to get in

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some good ones there and this is at

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ufo's caught on video over

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skyros island in greece so this is

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exciting

283
00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:22,880
uh so a beautiful place in greece

284
00:09:27,110 --> 00:09:25,360
and the video isn't that impressive it's

285
00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:27,120
a couple of lights kind of blinking in

286
00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:28,080
the sky

287
00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:31,040
but that's all they were able to capture

288
00:09:35,910 --> 00:09:32,399
but this witness says

289
00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:35,920
he along with 20 other people at a bar

290
00:09:39,910 --> 00:09:36,800
on the beach

291
00:09:40,389 --> 00:09:39,920
saw these five objects kind of flying

292
00:09:43,509 --> 00:09:40,399
around

293
00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:43,519
in parallel and uh suddenly they moved

294
00:09:46,949 --> 00:09:44,880
towards each other

295
00:09:48,310 --> 00:09:46,959
and then sped off at what he called

296
00:09:51,509 --> 00:09:48,320
breakneck speed

297
00:09:53,509 --> 00:09:51,519
off into the distance so um this is kind

298
00:09:55,750 --> 00:09:53,519
of an exciting one and and if

299
00:09:57,030 --> 00:09:55,760
you know what the witnesses say is what

300
00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:57,040
really happened you know

301
00:10:00,550 --> 00:09:58,800
that's that's pretty impressive and uh

302
00:10:01,670 --> 00:10:00,560
astonishing sighting there

303
00:10:03,509 --> 00:10:01,680
yeah well you know i'm gonna have to

304
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:03,519
come clean you know really for the next

305
00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:05,279
two weeks i'm actually going over there

306
00:10:09,990 --> 00:10:07,200
to investigate that

307
00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:10,000
excellent yeah i want to come with then

308
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:11,440
uh that's a good idea

309
00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:12,800
yeah well hey you're not going to be on

310
00:10:21,269 --> 00:10:19,430
so is that it for the news this week

311
00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:21,279
that's it for the news of course there's

312
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:23,680
always tons of news going on but uh you

313
00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:25,920
can find these all at openmindset tv

314
00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:27,440
those are just some of the highlights of

315
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:30,160
the week great and we'll be talking to

316
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:32,560
you in what three weeks

317
00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:35,040
yeah so you have a fun trip out there in

318
00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:35,600
greece

319
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:38,079
and uh be careful i will all right have

320
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,519
a happy hiatus

321
00:10:43,269 --> 00:10:41,279
and so that's it for the news today and

322
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:43,279
coming up right after the short music

323
00:11:04,870 --> 00:10:43,760
break

324
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:07,910
paul carr how are you uh fine marty how

325
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:08,480
are you

326
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:11,519
i'm doing well and for the listening

327
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:12,480
audience

328
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:14,720
i want you to if you would give your

329
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:16,079
background first and we're going to be

330
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:17,200
talking about

331
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:20,560
ufos and your podcast your great podcast

332
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,920
that i just listened to i want to talk a

333
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:23,200
little bit about that

334
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:24,560
and but can you give your your

335
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:25,680
background on what you're doing

336
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,640
currently

337
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:28,720
um as far as your occupation and then we

338
00:11:32,230 --> 00:11:29,680
can go into

339
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:32,240
the investigations after that sure let

340
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:34,160
me preface though by saying i do not

341
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,150
are you there looks like we lost paul

342
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,320
nasa got him that's what it was that was

343
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:48,800
like perfect timing as soon as he said

344
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:52,639
he was not affiliated with nasa he

345
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,480
vanished and we're trying to get him

346
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,240
back on right now

347
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:59,040
he's got a great podcast and i'm just

348
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:00,560
going to play a little clip since

349
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:03,680
we have this moment of issues here

350
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:06,880
this is a podcast he did with a skeptic

351
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:09,600
and i'll play a little clip of it and

352
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:10,480
the skeptic

353
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:12,639
uh was very interesting because he was

354
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:14,480
he was a very healthy

355
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:16,639
skeptic so here's a little clip of that

356
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,839
and i'm going to try to get paul on

357
00:12:22,389 --> 00:12:19,200
while this plays

358
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:22,399
how you could see that even so given the

359
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:24,160
right kinds of you know structures of

360
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,040
prestige

361
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:28,079
and authority and control and hierarchy

362
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:29,760
that once sort of the word came down

363
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:32,000
from on high from harvard and other

364
00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:33,839
other elite institutions um and

365
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,040
scientists that

366
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:37,600
everyone would fall into place i think

367
00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:38,160
that's

368
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,000
part of the you know the puzzle that

369
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:42,320
we're dealing with here too

370
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:44,880
can we talk more about your 170. we i

371
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:46,079
think we agree that

372
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,839
the ufo culture the ufo subculture is

373
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:51,680
full of lots of stuff that's

374
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:54,160
highly questionable all right so that

375
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:55,760
was a clip paul you're back on

376
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,600
i'm back on i i dropped off for some

377
00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:59,519
reason yeah well don't do that again i

378
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:01,440
think it was when you mentioned nasa

379
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:03,920
oh yes well of course they are listening

380
00:13:06,629 --> 00:13:04,639
yeah

381
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:06,639
well it's actually the exact same time

382
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:08,160
you said

383
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:11,120
that about nasa you just left so yeah

384
00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:11,680
well you know

385
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:13,440
uh think about one thing about people

386
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:14,959
think about nasa i think

387
00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:17,680
it's some sort of dark government agency

388
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:20,000
the vast majority of people at nasa

389
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,040
are you know hippies

390
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,839
they're they're scientists and and

391
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:27,279
people who support science

392
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:30,880
and uh it's pretty it's a pretty open

393
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:31,839
culture

394
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:35,360
um yeah you know i had i had a offer i

395
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:37,519
had a conversation with ray stanford

396
00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:40,560
who his wife um works at goddard and he

397
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:43,199
actually hangs out a lot with you know

398
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:44,560
people from the space

399
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,720
center there and you know basically said

400
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:48,720
the same thing there's a lot of really

401
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:51,440
interesting people uh faceted and many

402
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:53,279
different interests and um

403
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:57,279
great stuff yeah ray's an interesting

404
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:57,839
guy

405
00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:00,160
i'd love to have a chat with him myself

406
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:01,360
uh

407
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:08,240
i was talking about how

408
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:09,760
i wanted to know basically your

409
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:11,600
background and if you could talk about

410
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,399
your career

411
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:14,560
first and then we'll get into um you

412
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,720
actually investigate ufos which i think

413
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:18,320
right

414
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,079
yeah well for over 30 years i've been

415
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:25,519
in the design build test

416
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:28,800
operation uh

417
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:32,720
of unmanned spacecraft um i was inspired

418
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:34,639
by the manned space program when i was

419
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:35,920
just a kid

420
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:39,279
um but uh and i decided

421
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,839
fairly early on i'm a space guy space is

422
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:44,160
what i do

423
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:47,680
and i've been doing it since the early

424
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:48,480
80s

425
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:54,310
i've always been interested in ufos

426
00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:55,279
although that

427
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:57,680
interest has waxed and waned and i you

428
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:58,480
know

429
00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:01,760
because for a long time i was turned off

430
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:04,320
like so many other people by

431
00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:08,320
the ufo culture

432
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:10,839
more or less the fringe aspect of it

433
00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:12,160
yeah

434
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:15,440
uh the fringe aspect and also the fact

435
00:15:20,069 --> 00:15:16,160
that

436
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:20,079
it has very low respectability in

437
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:23,279
the more i don't know mainstream

438
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:26,800
technical culture uh it's kind of sort

439
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:27,600
of

440
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,240
what we call the laughter curtain i'm

441
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:31,920
sure you're familiar with

442
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:36,079
uh the notion that it's all sort of

443
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:39,680
acquired a kind of joke

444
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:44,000
atmosphere and people don't take ufos

445
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:44,720
seriously they

446
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:46,000
and they pick people who are interested

447
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:48,160
in ufos they don't take them seriously

448
00:15:50,949 --> 00:15:48,800
so

449
00:15:52,829 --> 00:15:50,959
if you're interested you you generally

450
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:52,839
keep your mouth shut

451
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:55,600
um yeah but like i said i've been doing

452
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:56,399
it 30 years

453
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:58,000
does that go for you for the most part

454
00:16:02,230 --> 00:15:59,759
are you open till you openly talk about

455
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:05,269
um i

456
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:08,720
don't talk about it much

457
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:15,749
now let me just ask you this so

458
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:18,240
but do you talk about it with certain

459
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:20,880
people that you feel comfortable with

460
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:22,639
at work i mean are there those people

461
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:24,320
there

462
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:29,360
this subject doesn't come up much

463
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:32,959
um and uh

464
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:36,240
you know ufo believers generally regard

465
00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:37,759
me as a skeptic

466
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:40,880
uh and i i'm i'm happy to accept that

467
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:42,079
label

468
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:45,360
uh and

469
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:48,560
and yet i investigate ufos i think

470
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:49,120
there's

471
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:51,920
something about ufos that is important

472
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:53,839
and interesting

473
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:57,360
and i um

474
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,519
i've not made any effort to conceal the

475
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:00,959
fact that i do that

476
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:03,680
um you know like i said i've been doing

477
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:06,240
this 30 years i'm senior enough that

478
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:09,360
i'm not worried about uh my

479
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:12,959
climb up the ladder that's uh

480
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,959
being affected by ridicule or

481
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,720
people thinking that i can't be taken

482
00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:20,799
seriously i think i've shown that i can

483
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:21,120
be

484
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,400
so i don't uh

485
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:26,559
i don't worry about that anymore uh

486
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:28,000
there was a time when

487
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:31,039
i would have said hey wait i better

488
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:34,400
you know if i want to move up to the

489
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:35,440
next

490
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:38,000
level in this business i'm going to have

491
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:39,520
to

492
00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:44,240
keep my mouth shut about ufos and

493
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:47,360
so i i i did that

494
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,559
and there was also a period of time

495
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:50,400
where i really just was so turned off i

496
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:52,080
didn't really want to

497
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:54,960
i would prefer to just accept the

498
00:17:58,470 --> 00:17:56,559
default position that there was nothing

499
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:58,480
to it and just move on

500
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:01,520
um that changed but

501
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:05,280
i um

502
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:07,919
i was prepared to take that position i

503
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:08,400
think

504
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:10,640
a lot of people are just they take the

505
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:12,480
comforting notion that there's nothing

506
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:14,400
to it

507
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,520
and they and you can easily take that

508
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:19,679
position

509
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:22,720
and my skeptical friends who say

510
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:25,039
uh i don't have to believe in ufos i i

511
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,760
will tell them

512
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,039
you're right you don't have to we don't

513
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:29,039
have enough evidence

514
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:32,400
for anything as strong as belief

515
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:35,200
and what we do have evidence for or not

516
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,039
even evidence but we have

517
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:39,360
intriguing hints that there's something

518
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:40,320
out there that's

519
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:43,760
not exactly in line with how

520
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:47,039
what we think of the world of the planet

521
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:49,200
earth

522
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:53,440
and i can't prove it to you

523
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:56,400
i i can't give you a an iron-clad case

524
00:19:04,230 --> 00:18:57,360
that

525
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:04,240
fit into the standard model reality

526
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:07,919
but um i think there there may be

527
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:09,600
and if there is it's incredibly

528
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:10,960
important and

529
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:13,840
well there you go i agree with that now

530
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,400
a man of science such as yourself

531
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,960
the first thing that comes to mind is

532
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:19,919
what

533
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:24,720
be done to better investigate

534
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:28,640
what's going on oh boy

535
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:32,720
well there's really three major aspects

536
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:33,760
of that

537
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,440
um and this is one of the reasons i

538
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:39,679
joined up with antonio paris because i

539
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:40,320
think

540
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:43,120
he's on board with this too is one thing

541
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:45,120
we have to do is we have to drain the

542
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:46,240
swamp

543
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:48,480
we have to remove the toxicity from the

544
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:50,559
topic

545
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:53,679
we have to create

546
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:57,360
a safe place where reasonable people

547
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:01,440
can investigate study

548
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:04,799
uh compare notes and not feel

549
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:08,559
that they're part of the lunatic fringe

550
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,080
and not

551
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,960
and and right now that that is still in

552
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:16,720
progress i think we're not there yet

553
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:19,039
i i see encouraging signs that that is

554
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:20,320
happening

555
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:24,559
uh that there are real people of science

556
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,159
who are rational and

557
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,200
not and skeptical who are willing

558
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:33,440
to open themselves up to discussions

559
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:34,400
about

560
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:37,840
uh unidentified aerial phenomena uh

561
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:41,520
in in a it's it doesn't have to be

562
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:42,400
treated like

563
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:48,149
it's not the same thing as astrology

564
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:49,600
it's not the same thing

565
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:53,440
as homeopathy there's there's uh

566
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:56,559
right there's a there's a lot of

567
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:59,360
uh there's a room there's a small space

568
00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:00,799
there that we can create

569
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:03,360
and i think a lot of it has to be done

570
00:21:08,710 --> 00:21:05,360
out of public view

571
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:08,720
um and then so we

572
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:11,440
if we drain the swamp we gradually

573
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,360
remove the toxicity

574
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,400
uh the next step is to gain respect

575
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:18,559
and how to and how do we do that well

576
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:20,320
that's a very tough problem and i'm

577
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,640
still

578
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:22,400
working on it i hope lots of other

579
00:21:24,789 --> 00:21:24,080
people will join me and help me work on

580
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:24,799
it

581
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:29,440
uh we have to do good scientific work

582
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:32,559
i agree i i'm 100 with you i want to i

583
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:33,200
want to just

584
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:34,880
throw a quote at you that i had a

585
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:36,960
astrophysicist on a few weeks ago

586
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:38,080
jeffrey bennett

587
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,000
yeah i heard it i heard that that was

588
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:41,520
that was a good episode yeah

589
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:44,559
thanks for listening the the part that

590
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:47,679
that fascinated me and and i'll try to

591
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:50,080
uh paraphrase it the best i can but he

592
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:51,440
said if

593
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:54,240
if an intelligence a society can get

594
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:55,120
through

595
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:57,120
the bottleneck of their technology

596
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:58,640
without blowing themselves up

597
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:59,840
one of the things that they would be

598
00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:01,679
doing is trying to figure out

599
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:04,880
space travel and they probably are um

600
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:05,760
what are you what are your thoughts

601
00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:08,799
about that uh i i generally agree with

602
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:09,200
that

603
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:12,880
i i i mean i don't

604
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:14,960
it's possible that a species could be

605
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:17,919
very advanced and sophisticated

606
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:20,080
and completely ignore the universe

607
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:21,600
around them

608
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:25,039
but it's hard to imagine a

609
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:28,240
sophisticated society uh you know

610
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:29,919
just from the human analogy which i know

611
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:32,960
is imperfect and probably fraught with

612
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:36,559
with error uh astronomy has always been

613
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:36,799
an

614
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:40,080
civilization

615
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:43,440
on our planet uh

616
00:22:46,710 --> 00:22:45,840
even you know just about every

617
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,720
civilization

618
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:48,720
has gotten smart about astronomy gotten

619
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:49,760
really good

620
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:52,320
the ancient chinese the ancient mayans

621
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:54,080
uh the egyptians

622
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:58,720
um so far from ignoring the universe we

623
00:23:03,510 --> 00:22:59,440
we're

624
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:03,520
extremely interested in it and and

625
00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:06,640
so you know it's there

626
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:08,559
it's the elephant in the room you have

627
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,240
to go you have to see

628
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,320
and frankly you know i think we are

629
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,640
doing that even though i'm

630
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:16,640
my generation are all very disappointed

631
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:18,559
in the manned space

632
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,480
program as it's evolved since the 1960s

633
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:25,120
but our unmanned space program has been

634
00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:27,039
a huge success

635
00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:30,400
and and we know so much more about the

636
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:31,120
universe

637
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:34,320
than we did when i was a kid right right

638
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:36,960
and who knows like if if it's possible

639
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:38,559
let's say

640
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:41,200
that we are being visited um who knows

641
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:42,960
if they're manned or unmanned you know i

642
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:43,600
mean that

643
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:46,000
that could be part of what go ahead one

644
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:47,120
of the one of the things that i

645
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,880
i'm taking quite seriously is that

646
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:50,240
they're unmanned

647
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:53,039
uh that it wouldn't make sense

648
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:54,799
necessarily to send

649
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:57,360
biological beings across such vast

650
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:58,080
distances

651
00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:59,679
i i wanna i just wanna i had this

652
00:24:01,909 --> 00:24:01,520
conversation with my son last weekend we

653
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:01,919
were

654
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:04,640
vacationing and you know he basically

655
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:06,400
said the same thing you just did

656
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:09,279
and i came back with them unless they

657
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:10,240
can figure out

658
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:13,360
how to travel space instantly and want

659
00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:14,559
to experience it

660
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:17,360
themselves like we would well yeah i

661
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,240
mean

662
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:20,559
all bets are off if if you can do that

663
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:21,600
all right right

664
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:24,320
uh and as far as we know that's not

665
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:25,279
possible

666
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:28,960
but again as far as we know

667
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:31,039
right one thing that that i've always

668
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,799
been a a big

669
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:34,720
that i pushed really hard in my blog and

670
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:35,840
my podcast

671
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:39,200
and everything is humility

672
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,400
there's a lot we don't know and we have

673
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:43,840
to avoid the trap

674
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,760
of jumping to conclusions uh about

675
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:49,520
anything having to do with an advanced

676
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:50,960
civilization

677
00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:54,880
there and is currently all

678
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,919
existing and functioning is almost

679
00:25:01,909 --> 00:24:58,880
certainly

680
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:01,919
far more advanced than we are right

681
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:04,960
right hey um i have to say that first of

682
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:05,360
all

683
00:25:10,149 --> 00:25:08,400
uh we're um talking with paul carr

684
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,159
and if you're listening live you can

685
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,400
jump over to podcastufo.com and

686
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:14,480
and get our chat room we do have a

687
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,600
number of questions that have been

688
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:17,120
popping in in our chat room

689
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:20,240
and i'm going to start at the top um

690
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:22,240
what was it that caused you to go from a

691
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:24,240
non-believer to a person who

692
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:28,080
leaned toward the other side uh well let

693
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:29,039
me

694
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:32,400
say that i went uh i don't think i'm a

695
00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:33,919
believer

696
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:37,760
uh that that term might be used a little

697
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:38,960
too loosely in this

698
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:43,440
subject yeah i i think the whole

699
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,960
the whole discussion about belief is

700
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:47,039
something i'd like to you know

701
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:49,760
not have but uh we should be talking

702
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:51,120
about evidence and we should be talking

703
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:51,840
about

704
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:00,080
you know science changes all the time

705
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:02,960
and and and uh the proper skeptical

706
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:04,240
attitude is

707
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:07,840
i may be wrong and that's always been my

708
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:10,080
attitude respect to ufos

709
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:12,720
even going back to the 60s when i first

710
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:15,039
saw the news stories about the ufo flaps

711
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:16,080
that they were having

712
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:18,000
back then and how congressman ford who

713
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,080
eventually became president ford

714
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:22,320
was demanding that congress investigate

715
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:29,830
the in my first

716
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,760
i have to tell you my first ufo sighting

717
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:33,039
which was in the

718
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:40,630
which left me puzzled

719
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:42,559
uh i didn't have a good explanation for

720
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:44,000
it but i always kept telling myself i

721
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,000
could be wrong

722
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:48,799
really weird or it could be something

723
00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:49,279
that

724
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:54,320
still my position i could be wrong

725
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,080
but what i have seen things in the sky

726
00:27:01,190 --> 00:27:00,640
myself that i think are are strange i've

727
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,200
seen

728
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:03,360
and talked to many credible people who

729
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:04,480
have

730
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:08,240
similar experiences um

731
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:11,120
i i'm not that impressed by most of the

732
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:13,200
famous cases

733
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:16,000
uh the roswell's and the reynoldsons and

734
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:17,039
so on

735
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:20,399
uh but i i it's just the

736
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:23,039
the weight of many credible people

737
00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:24,720
seeing

738
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,919
incredible things um many of which

739
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:29,760
i know from my experience as a field

740
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:32,240
investigator you can explain but

741
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:35,600
there's always that hard nugget that

742
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,039
is probably the inspiration behind the

743
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:41,039
false sightings and

744
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:44,320
is the uh

745
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:47,600
it just you know we have good evidence

746
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:50,799
multiple witnesses and you don't have an

747
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:53,200
explanation

748
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:56,799
that's those kinds of cases are

749
00:28:01,430 --> 00:27:59,840
rare they are probably

750
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:01,440
well less than five percent of the raw

751
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:03,520
reports um

752
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:07,360
but uh i've i've always thought

753
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:10,159
you know there's there's hints here that

754
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:11,279
something

755
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:14,399
is going on and there is absolutely no

756
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:14,880
reason

757
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:18,880
logically why we might not be visited

758
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:22,000
by robots or

759
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,240
probes or something from from other

760
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,070
so if if there is something

761
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:32,080
a non-human intelligence and let's face

762
00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:33,440
it we

763
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:35,520
we're completely ignorant about the

764
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:37,840
nature of such a thing

765
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:42,840
uh then that is the most

766
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:45,120
important discovery

767
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:48,640
ever i i agree and that's why

768
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:51,600
i i just wish you know more people could

769
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:52,320
take it

770
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:54,880
you know on the serious side and but i

771
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:57,360
do also understand what you were saying

772
00:29:02,230 --> 00:28:59,840
about trying to separate you know the

773
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,240
the wheat from the chaff as they say

774
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:04,720
um we have a ton of questions coming in

775
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:05,919
and i want to get to

776
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:08,480
okay i want to get to some of these keep

777
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:09,279
me on track

778
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:12,799
yeah okay this person was asking he's

779
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:13,440
curious

780
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:15,279
if you investigated the black knight

781
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:16,799
satellite and i believe you did didn't

782
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:17,600
you

783
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:20,559
uh i did briefly i i i'm not a black

784
00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:22,159
knight expert but i spoke to duncan

785
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,080
lunan who was the guy

786
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,960
who was misquoted and visually about the

787
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:28,240
black knight satellite

788
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:30,720
by the the daily mail you know whoever

789
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:32,159
whoever heard of them may get anything

790
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:32,960
wrong but

791
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:37,200
uh okay actually duncan luna and he told

792
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:38,480
me he said this is one of the worst

793
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:39,520
things i've ever seen the

794
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,679
daily mail get wrong which is pretty

795
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:43,840
that makes it really egregious but

796
00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:46,960
uh yeah there's

797
00:29:51,669 --> 00:29:50,559
uh i've not found any evidence that the

798
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:51,679
black knight exists

799
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,840
at all and i'm going to be honest with

800
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:55,520
you i have absolutely no idea what it

801
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:56,240
means

802
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,320
so we can't but i mean i just haven't

803
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:59,760
looked into it or i haven't heard about

804
00:30:01,909 --> 00:30:01,520
it but that that doesn't really mean

805
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,919
much

806
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:03,520
well duncan's an interesting guy you

807
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:04,720
might want to get him on sometime he's

808
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:07,520
got some good stories to tell

809
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:10,720
but uh he was

810
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:14,720
um he was looking into

811
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:17,919
the possibility that there are uh

812
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:20,960
alien probes in our solar system and he

813
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:23,200
had some intriguing evidence of that

814
00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:27,200
oh wow uh but

815
00:30:31,029 --> 00:30:30,240
um there this thing just became an urban

816
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:31,039
legend it got

817
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:34,720
it it took off and i do have on my

818
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:37,600
on wowsignalpodcast.com there is an mp3

819
00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:38,480
where

820
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:41,520
uh duncan explains all that and how it

821
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,000
got

822
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:45,279
started there's there's uh

823
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:47,279
none of the photographs you've seen that

824
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:49,120
say i'm this is the black knight

825
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,320
or anything uh so um

826
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:54,399
and there's that notion was there some

827
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:55,520
you know there's a 13

828
00:31:02,630 --> 00:30:59,360
000 or a 25 000 year old satellite that

829
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,640
was in orbit around the earth um and

830
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:04,480
i don't i frankly i don't think there's

831
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:05,760
that would be really cool

832
00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:08,559
uh that that's called a bracewell probe

833
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:09,200
uh

834
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,399
it is something that even mainstream

835
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:14,159
scientists take seriously

836
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:17,360
right as a possibility but

837
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:20,480
as a possibility right they don't know

838
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:22,399
and i don't know of any evidence of such

839
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:23,120
a thing

840
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,159
uh i'm really interested in how we could

841
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:27,600
look for that evidence and that's one of

842
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:28,799
the things i talk about on the wow

843
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,440
signal

844
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:31,679
quite often and i i've mentioned this a

845
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,200
bunch of times you know that

846
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,600
it doesn't matter if it's uh 25 000

847
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:36,960
years old or a million years old

848
00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:37,919
anything could

849
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,080
you know if something was traveling um

850
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:42,320
in their you know in their prime

851
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:44,320
um they could definitely come here then

852
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:45,600
i'm going to bounce around a little bit

853
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,399
on the

854
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:49,440
message board on questions and here's

855
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:50,320
one

856
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:52,240
phil is asking how can science be

857
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,559
applied to transient phenomena

858
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:56,960
does it make sense to me ah that's a

859
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:57,840
very good question

860
00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:00,880
um and it's something that comes up

861
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,679
frequently but

862
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:03,840
there are many examples of science

863
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:07,360
dealing with transient phenomena

864
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:10,320
ufos are particularly tricky transient

865
00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:12,840
phenomena because they don't repeat

866
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:15,919
uh you can't chase ufos

867
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:19,440
uh i think that's been well established

868
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,559
uh you can you can wait you can sit and

869
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:24,240
wait for them and maybe they'll come by

870
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:25,440
that's something that i think

871
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:28,480
we need to do more of but

872
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:31,760
uh they are

873
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:33,760
they are transient we have to study them

874
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:36,080
in a different way we have to study

875
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:39,679
the patterns of reports and not just

876
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,559
and not sit there and hope that the

877
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:44,640
black triangle you saw yesterday is

878
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:45,919
going to come back to the by the same

879
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,480
place

880
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:48,720
it's almost certainly not going to come

881
00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:50,240
back by the same place

882
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:52,720
it may in fact that same particular

883
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:54,159
triangle may never be seen again

884
00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:55,120
anywhere

885
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:58,159
um but keep in mind there's two things

886
00:33:04,470 --> 00:32:59,279
one is we we have

887
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:08,830
of the only a tiny fraction of

888
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:12,000
uh ufo sightings are reported

889
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:14,399
right and i just just if we can pause

890
00:33:19,029 --> 00:33:15,760
there i want to

891
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:19,039
do a case in point here i was at a ufo

892
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,080
festival this last

893
00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:22,640
weekend and richard dolan was speaking

894
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:24,080
and he asked the audience which was a

895
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:26,799
very well attended audience

896
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:28,880
like almost standing room and he said

897
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:30,159
how many people

898
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:33,440
believe that they saw a unidentified

899
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,840
flying object object the ufo

900
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:37,679
and you know it looked like about 70

901
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,200
percent of the audience

902
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:41,279
raised their hand i was shocked at that

903
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:42,320
and then he said

904
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:44,559
how many people reported it and i got to

905
00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:47,519
tell you there was less than 10 hands up

906
00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:51,279
yeah uh and and by the way uh

907
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:52,960
my organization will take your report

908
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:54,240
lots of organizations will take your

909
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:55,279
report

910
00:34:01,269 --> 00:33:58,960
organizations that that

911
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,279
will investigate at least the better

912
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:03,120
cases

913
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:05,200
but even if they don't investigate it's

914
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:07,120
good to have that database

915
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:10,240
uh so so the answer

916
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:12,720
on transient phenomena is it's largely

917
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:14,480
an unsolved problem with respect to ufos

918
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:14,960
but

919
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:17,520
if you look at uh other transient

920
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:19,280
phenomena that science has discovered

921
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,320
they've been there

922
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:22,560
they've found ways to investigate them a

923
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:24,000
very good example are the gamma ray

924
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,960
bursts

925
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:26,879
that showed up in the 60s when by

926
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:33,270
they were looking for soviet nuclear

927
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:34,879
tests not for

928
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:38,399
astronomical phenomena and it took

929
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:42,240
many many years to determine

930
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:44,159
what they were and we still not i don't

931
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:45,599
think they've still exactly

932
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:48,639
got consensus on on what all gamma ray

933
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:50,079
bursts are there's there's seem to be

934
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:51,359
different classes of them

935
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:55,760
but the that was a transient phenomena

936
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:56,079
that

937
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,760
appeared only for a short time went away

938
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:01,440
and that didn't reoccur at that same

939
00:35:06,069 --> 00:35:04,560
point but it reoccurred often enough

940
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:06,079
that they were able to send up

941
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:07,680
satellites to study it

942
00:35:13,109 --> 00:35:11,119
and so they found a way

943
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:13,119
it and because it was scientifically

944
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,880
important enough

945
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:16,800
they found a way that's part of the big

946
00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:18,240
problem here is we don't

947
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:20,000
have the not only do we not have the

948
00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:22,640
money we don't have the talent

949
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:24,400
that we really need to scientifically

950
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:27,839
study ufos and that's something that

951
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:30,320
and because it's a career-limiting move

952
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,760
for a young scientist to

953
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:33,119
say hey you know i'd like to spend my

954
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,160
weekends out looking for ufos

955
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:38,880
don't do that don't do that do it

956
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:39,760
quietly

957
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:42,400
yeah up on the message board um this is

958
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:43,680
a

959
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:01,520
uh now

960
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:03,839
you remember the connection from the

961
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:05,520
international space station

962
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:08,400
to the ground usually through tdrs and

963
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,839
so they sometimes they

964
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:11,520
every orbit they have to switch from one

965
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:13,280
tv satellite to another so there is

966
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,040
going to be a interruption

967
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:18,480
uh in in communications

968
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,390
but in terms of something approaching

969
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:28,000
the space station i haven't seen any

970
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:29,440
evidence that i i

971
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:31,760
it could be i just i i have to plead

972
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:32,480
ignorance

973
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,920
yes i actually spoke to um a few

974
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:37,440
different times to

975
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:38,640
one of the people that landed on the

976
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:41,200
moon alan bean and alan bean was

977
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:42,240
involved in a

978
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,079
uh quite a interesting ufo sighting back

979
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:49,040
in 1970 i believe it was

980
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:50,800
and but i couldn't get him to talk about

981
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,200
it but but it's all over the internet he

982
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,200
just would not talk about it on the show

983
00:36:59,589 --> 00:36:57,280
oh do you mean the skylab 3 yeah that's

984
00:37:03,109 --> 00:36:59,599
right yeah oh that is a great case

985
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:03,119
yeah uh and it has been incorrectly

986
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:04,800
debunked in my view

987
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:07,440
so when i get some time i'm really going

988
00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:08,000
to dig into

989
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:11,119
that but i i think there you have

990
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:13,839
three astronauts you have photographs

991
00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:14,720
you have

992
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:18,079
measurements um

993
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:21,599
great case it's potent potentially

994
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:22,160
really

995
00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:24,960
i mean you can always come up with a

996
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:27,599
hand-waving explanation for anything

997
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:30,720
but a solid explanation that really fits

998
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,599
all the facts

999
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,359
right now i don't think they have one

1000
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:35,760
right right um getting back to the

1001
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:36,800
message board

1002
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,240
um what evidence caused you

1003
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:42,000
um no wait a minute i think i already

1004
00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:43,520
asked that question i'm sorry

1005
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:47,200
uh someone is curious if uh

1006
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:49,680
you or any of your co-workers are bound

1007
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:52,160
to restrictions you sort of covered that

1008
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:54,240
regarding sensitive information related

1009
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:55,440
to the world

1010
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:03,910
there's at nasa i run into very little

1011
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,960
classified information of any sort

1012
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:08,880
but we do have something called

1013
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:11,200
sensitive but unclassified

1014
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:15,200
uh and also something called

1015
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:18,720
for official use only that's not used

1016
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:20,400
frequently at nasa

1017
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,400
nasa people generally the culture there

1018
00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:24,720
is to avoid

1019
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:26,720
unnecessary restrictions on the flow of

1020
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:27,839
information

1021
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,440
because it's a sign the mission is

1022
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:30,880
scientific and and

1023
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:33,280
science works best when everybody has

1024
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:35,200
access to information

1025
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:37,839
there's also something called itar which

1026
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:38,640
uh

1027
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,599
means that we can't discuss technical

1028
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:43,119
information that might go to foreign

1029
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:44,560
nationals

1030
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:45,920
in many unless we have some kind of

1031
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:48,800
special agreement in place so

1032
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:52,160
uh yeah there are restrictions but uh

1033
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:54,640
no there's not like security cops at

1034
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,160
nasa who come and tell us

1035
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:58,560
don't talk about science don't talk

1036
00:39:04,870 --> 00:38:59,599
about

1037
00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:04,880
specific things that could be

1038
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:07,280
a problem if you know some malicious

1039
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:10,240
person knew them

1040
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,000
and believe me i have not seen anything

1041
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,079
that that i thought was inappropriate

1042
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:16,560
or you know a gag order for something on

1043
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,520
some kind

1044
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,440
now like i said i don't speak for nasa

1045
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,760
but i think nasa

1046
00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:23,920
does not really you know nasa is a much

1047
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:25,760
more open culture than

1048
00:39:31,910 --> 00:39:29,839
the national security bureaucracy

1049
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:31,920
now you we talk about evidence you've

1050
00:39:35,589 --> 00:39:33,200
been talking about

1051
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:35,599
the lack of evidence someone on the

1052
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,480
message board

1053
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:38,720
wants to know what the most compelling

1054
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:39,839
evidence

1055
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:43,440
of for you is uh

1056
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:46,880
well i wish i could tell you that i had

1057
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:50,240
rock solid evidence of something uh and

1058
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:50,560
but

1059
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:53,599
to ask

1060
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:56,640
what is it evidence of right and

1061
00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:00,079
and that turns out to be a hard problem

1062
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:02,960
uh and i think a largely unsolved

1063
00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:03,680
problem

1064
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:06,480
and if you uh i contribute something to

1065
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:08,480
a podcast called api case files called

1066
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:09,680
unidentified science

1067
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:11,920
if you i would refer to them to that

1068
00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:12,880
because i've been

1069
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:14,000
wrestling with that problem and

1070
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:17,119
identified science for five episodes now

1071
00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:21,599
but essentially uh

1072
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,319
for me personally the most compelling

1073
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,359
data i don't want to say evident what my

1074
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:31,520
own personal experiences

1075
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:34,720
um right and but how

1076
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,640
how you know this is a really good point

1077
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:38,400
you said you had a sighting back in the

1078
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:39,280
70s

1079
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:42,960
how do you relay that to someone and

1080
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:44,160
i'm going to ask you kind of a silly

1081
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:46,079
question did you report

1082
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:49,920
that no i i i am going to admit that i

1083
00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:51,359
did everything wrong

1084
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:54,160
with respect to every sighting i've had

1085
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:56,319
uh

1086
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,560
one of the reasons i wanted to become a

1087
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:02,480
field investigator i felt i wanted to

1088
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:03,280
help

1089
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:06,319
get it done right um

1090
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:09,440
and figure out what light would be

1091
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,800
uh i have the last time i saw something

1092
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,160
that i didn't understand

1093
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:16,079
i tried to document it turns out i could

1094
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:18,240
explain it eventually it took

1095
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:22,960
took me a few months uh but

1096
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:25,680
it was uh there are other things i've

1097
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:27,760
seen that i cannot explain

1098
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,640
and i'm open to

1099
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:35,359
trying to figure it out but uh i'm not

1100
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:37,280
saying that it's proof of aliens i will

1101
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:38,240
never say that

1102
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:41,760
unless i have actual proof of aliens but

1103
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:43,680
uh and the word proof is extremely

1104
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:45,119
strong that means it's logically

1105
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:46,160
unavoidable

1106
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:50,319
uh i would say evidence uh

1107
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,480
what what i but i've also

1108
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:56,400
worked some cases personally as a field

1109
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:57,599
investigator that have

1110
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:59,440
uh when you get up close and personal

1111
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:01,040
with those cases

1112
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:02,319
uh you end up scratching your head

1113
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:04,240
sometimes you say well yeah there's

1114
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:08,720
possibly some other explanation

1115
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,480
but uh everything i'm seeing so far

1116
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,480
looks pretty anomalous pretty weird

1117
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:16,880
i don't know why it's anomalous but it

1118
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:20,079
doesn't fit anything i know about

1119
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,630
a series of things that have taken place

1120
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:28,240
in north central maryland

1121
00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:31,599
not far from camp david by the way which

1122
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:35,280
i don't understand uh we have

1123
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:39,040
one sorso photograph we have

1124
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,319
witness testimony uh from actually

1125
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:44,480
multiple events

1126
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,200
spread out over time that area is full

1127
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:48,960
of classified facilities

1128
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:52,480
and government activity so

1129
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:54,400
stay tuned i really don't know the

1130
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:55,520
answer but

1131
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:57,280
it's quite interesting would you say

1132
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,960
that's one of the most compelling cases

1133
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:00,560
that you've studied so far

1134
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:03,839
yes uh in terms of historical cases i

1135
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:07,280
think the skylab 3 case is a great case

1136
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:10,720
i i think that the belgium wave is

1137
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:14,319
a great case uh announced recently

1138
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:16,160
somebody came out

1139
00:43:20,069 --> 00:43:18,160
to poison that by saying oh look the one

1140
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:20,079
photograph you have is

1141
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,520
is um is tainted possibly even faked

1142
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:28,240
and to that i'd say well yeah but that's

1143
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:29,520
really not

1144
00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:31,119
a key piece of evidence for the belgium

1145
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:33,359
wave at all uh

1146
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:36,480
but uh

1147
00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:39,040
but i wonder i do i have this i think

1148
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,079
it's quite mysterious

1149
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:42,800
why we don't have more and better

1150
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:45,920
photographs for example the o'hare case

1151
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:49,119
uh would have been a fantastic case it

1152
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:51,119
just somebody had

1153
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:52,560
snapped it with their cell phone and

1154
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,359
then uploaded that

1155
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:58,319
you know to flickr yeah i'm not sure

1156
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:59,599
that that

1157
00:44:02,349 --> 00:44:00,960
what year was that i'm just trying to

1158
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:02,359
remember what type of i think it was

1159
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:03,839
2007.

1160
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:05,280
yeah so there were there were camera

1161
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:06,960
phones but not like not like there

1162
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:09,440
are today just uh just a comment i'm

1163
00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:10,240
gonna

1164
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:13,599
it's a comment um that uh um

1165
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:15,359
and i hope you don't take this uh you

1166
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,720
know i hope you don't get upset by it

1167
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,160
but someone's saying i see a double

1168
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:20,079
standard his personal experiences are

1169
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:20,800
okay

1170
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,960
but people like charles halt that's of

1171
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:24,319
rendelsham forest

1172
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:27,520
uh do not impress him well okay i'm

1173
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:29,440
offering my personal experiences as to

1174
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:31,920
why i personally am compelled

1175
00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:34,400
i am not offering them as evidence

1176
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:36,319
there's a difference

1177
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:39,760
uh okay uh

1178
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:41,760
my experi personal experience are not

1179
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:43,839
evidence of anything because i did

1180
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:45,200
partly because i failed to document them

1181
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:46,960
well but also

1182
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:48,880
you know it was just my it was just one

1183
00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:50,319
witness

1184
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,400
i could be remembering it wrong i could

1185
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:53,920
there's lots of things here

1186
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:56,160
to me personally it's compelling it

1187
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:57,440
makes me want to go search and learn

1188
00:45:01,910 --> 00:44:58,319
more

1189
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,920
um that's what it did with me as well

1190
00:45:05,069 --> 00:45:03,760
here's another question up here someone

1191
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:05,079
wants me to ask you about

1192
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:08,240
1991 vg do you know

1193
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:11,280
yeah yeah i do know about that uh

1194
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:14,160
and i believe that's coming back by the

1195
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:14,720
earth

1196
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:17,119
in a couple of years i can't remember

1197
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:18,480
i'm going on memory there i

1198
00:45:21,829 --> 00:45:21,200
it may be i may be wrong about that but

1199
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,839
uh

1200
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,760
yeah it was a small body that was

1201
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:25,119
detected

1202
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:28,640
uh flew by the earth and at least one

1203
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:29,440
scientist

1204
00:45:36,309 --> 00:45:32,560
speculated it might be a bracelet probe

1205
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:36,319
which would be a probe sent from another

1206
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,560
civilization to sort of keep an eye on

1207
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:40,319
us

1208
00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:43,520
and maybe possibly well the classic

1209
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:45,599
brace wall paper stated that the

1210
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:46,880
bracewell probes would

1211
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:48,480
keep an eye on us until we were reached

1212
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:50,640
a certain level of advancement and then

1213
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:52,319
sort of let us sit on the secret and

1214
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:54,880
then blow us up who they were

1215
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:57,839
no okay that's good all right have you

1216
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,400
let's see

1217
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:00,319
have you done any research into the

1218
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:01,680
apollo 20 mission

1219
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,800
and the mona lisa uh

1220
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:07,359
i'm not sure what the mona lisa is i did

1221
00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:08,560
years ago i looked at

1222
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:11,920
some claims about an apollo 20 uh which

1223
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:13,520
i found to be bogus

1224
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:17,040
um again i'm going on memory here

1225
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:20,960
uh the there were major problems with

1226
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,000
the video

1227
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:24,319
uh that were it was making the rounds at

1228
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:25,440
the time

1229
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:31,510
to my i really don't believe there was

1230
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,040
an apollo 20.

1231
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:35,440
okay all right and i'm i'm just burning

1232
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:36,480
through these uh

1233
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:39,599
um pretty quickly and um marcus

1234
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:42,000
is saying you know in academia the use

1235
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:44,240
of peer review is useful to validate

1236
00:46:47,910 --> 00:46:46,960
you know etc could peer review be

1237
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:47,920
established

1238
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,440
in the ufo research community and

1239
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:53,760
would it lend more credibility

1240
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:56,319
credibility to the ufo field

1241
00:47:02,069 --> 00:46:59,760
yes absolutely and to make that happen

1242
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:02,079
we've got to start sharing data between

1243
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:03,839
investigative bodies

1244
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:07,280
uh in a way that that

1245
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:10,160
is ethical respect to the witnesses that

1246
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:11,599
it's a bit of a trick to do that

1247
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:14,079
because you have to anonymize the data

1248
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,119
but

1249
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:18,560
uh i think that that's

1250
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:21,760
you know that that is something we

1251
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:23,920
definitely ought to be working towards

1252
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:25,680
and i agree that peer review

1253
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:29,599
uh of cases would help a lot in in

1254
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:32,400
bringing the quality cases up to the top

1255
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,359
right right

1256
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:35,040
now i want to talk to you a little bit

1257
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:36,880
about debunkers

1258
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:40,400
um you know just and you know there's

1259
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:42,160
pseudoscience but there's also

1260
00:47:49,030 --> 00:47:45,280
pseudo skeptics um who um

1261
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:49,040
go way to the other extreme and i wanna

1262
00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:51,839
do you think it's uh oftentimes i i feel

1263
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:52,880
that

1264
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:55,920
cases like this um occur because of fear

1265
00:48:00,790 --> 00:47:59,359
issues or or uh possibly ego issues what

1266
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,800
what do you what do you think about the

1267
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:02,240
average debunker

1268
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:06,400
well i'm a very poor psychologist

1269
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:09,839
uh but what i uh

1270
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:13,520
here's my rule of thumb okay uh

1271
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:15,839
everyone should be skeptical you should

1272
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:17,119
be skeptical i should be skeptical we

1273
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:18,480
should all be skeptical

1274
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:21,280
nobody should swallow anything whole uh

1275
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:24,000
whatever claim is being made

1276
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:27,119
however uh

1277
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,640
you should be skeptical of yourself

1278
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,319
first

1279
00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:31,920
i think that richard feynman said

1280
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:33,760
something like that you first the

1281
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:36,960
easiest person to fool is yourself uh

1282
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:40,160
so if you run into somebody who

1283
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:43,680
is skeptical of

1284
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,520
other people but not of themselves i

1285
00:48:49,510 --> 00:48:47,200
think you could move on from there

1286
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:49,520
you can turn that off turn that person

1287
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:50,240
off

1288
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:56,240
if they seem to be desperate to disprove

1289
00:49:00,829 --> 00:48:57,280
something

1290
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:00,839
and are grasping at straws to do it

1291
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:04,160
uh then they're defending a dogmatic

1292
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:05,440
position they're not that's not

1293
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:06,880
skepticism

1294
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,880
it leads you

1295
00:49:14,069 --> 00:49:12,720
and and really asking hard questions

1296
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:14,079
about the evidence and

1297
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:16,640
hard questions about uh what it really

1298
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:19,200
means and reasoning carefully

1299
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:22,079
that it's just really just being a good

1300
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:23,119
scientist

1301
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:26,559
uh the

1302
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:30,000
so if you see people

1303
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:32,960
dead set to disprove something or prove

1304
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:34,000
something

1305
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:36,960
i think that you you need not waste your

1306
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,640
time with that person anymore

1307
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,720
um don't get upset about what they say

1308
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:41,760
just move on

1309
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:45,920
uh there i i accept the label of skeptic

1310
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:49,200
uh but when i do that i say

1311
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,599
skeptic does not mean debunker skeptic

1312
00:50:00,069 --> 00:49:53,040
means

1313
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:00,079
respect for

1314
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:06,559
the investigation shows clearly

1315
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:09,680
that it is bunk then debunk it and

1316
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,240
debunk it with energy and enthusiasm

1317
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:14,640
uh if so you find someone's to be a scam

1318
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:15,680
artist

1319
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,880
tell the world that they're a scam

1320
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:19,040
artist but you better have

1321
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,800
you better have a rock solid case that

1322
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:22,640
that's that so

1323
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,640
uh actually i've actually done that a

1324
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,079
few times on

1325
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:27,839
this podcast and you know i haven't

1326
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:30,480
really had any repercussions from it yet

1327
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:33,839
but um and i and i agree and i

1328
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:37,280
also agree with your skeptic view

1329
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,079
because um i think i think it's stan

1330
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:41,440
friedman that said

1331
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:44,480
if your mind is too open then then your

1332
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:46,079
brain is going to fall out you know i

1333
00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:46,800
mean

1334
00:50:51,910 --> 00:50:49,680
it just you have to observe but also

1335
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:51,920
observe with caution and you know try to

1336
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,880
find

1337
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:54,720
you know the reason instead of just

1338
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:56,640
buying in to the whole thing

1339
00:51:01,670 --> 00:50:59,680
yeah well a skeptic will recogni you

1340
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:01,680
know being a skeptic doesn't make you

1341
00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:04,880
a superior person it doesn't mean that

1342
00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:08,240
you're guaranteed to be right in fact

1343
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,680
the first thing a skeptic says is i

1344
00:51:14,790 --> 00:51:11,040
could be wrong

1345
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:14,800
right so uh skeptic yes

1346
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:17,119
yeah so what it might make you was a

1347
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,880
little a little bit less deluded and

1348
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,079
biased than you might have been

1349
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:22,480
otherwise

1350
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:24,240
and we all have delusions we all have

1351
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:26,319
biases we all have

1352
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:28,240
little narratives that we tell ourselves

1353
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:30,160
that may or may not

1354
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:31,920
quite square with their objective

1355
00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:33,920
examination of the facts

1356
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:38,240
uh and even the most rabid debunker has

1357
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,280
those biases uh or

1358
00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:43,440
so you know we need to be kind to each

1359
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:44,880
other we need we need to treat each

1360
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:46,400
other with a little respect

1361
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,319
and try to move forward um

1362
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:52,319
you know there are some people who just

1363
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,440
generally

1364
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,160
who really are not going to be part of a

1365
00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:58,079
solution

1366
00:52:05,109 --> 00:52:01,920
for one reason or another but

1367
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:05,119
you kind of have to gently identify

1368
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:08,079
those people and move on

1369
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:11,200
i did have a skeptic that was on this

1370
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:12,240
show

1371
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:14,720
that uh we more or less debated a little

1372
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:15,839
bit and

1373
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,280
he um he is part of what's called uh

1374
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:22,079
vote boy um oh i think i know you're

1375
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:22,640
talking about

1376
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:25,760
uh evan steen yeah bernstein yeah

1377
00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:27,680
and you know they they seem you know i

1378
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:28,960
mean in general

1379
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,240
he seems like a proud person to be proud

1380
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:34,559
that he knows more than

1381
00:52:37,990 --> 00:52:37,599
anyone else in this in this uh in this

1382
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:38,000
field

1383
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,079
looking into it yeah i i wouldn't call

1384
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:42,000
him a a true skeptic

1385
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:44,800
all the way through i'd call him um uh

1386
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,040
you know a partial skeptic and

1387
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:49,920
you know more toward a debunker as well

1388
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:50,480
yeah i

1389
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:53,680
you know i think um he's on a podcast

1390
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,960
with stephen novella

1391
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:57,280
right uh i think stephen novella has

1392
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,640
done some wonderful work in the

1393
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:00,240
alternative medicine in the field and

1394
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:03,200
and really debunking some very dangerous

1395
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:03,920
nonsense

1396
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:06,240
yes i i know i've listened to that show

1397
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:08,559
and um i agree he's a doctor right

1398
00:53:12,829 --> 00:53:11,680
yeah he's a neurologist at yale uh he's

1399
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:12,839
the real deal

1400
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:15,920
um you know and

1401
00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:19,839
so like i said let's be kind let's uh

1402
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:22,000
recognize that skeptics often do good

1403
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,069
and right now the skeptic

1404
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,400
community is torn apart by some

1405
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:32,160
controversies that you would not believe

1406
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:33,440
that they're having

1407
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:34,720
i don't know if you've been following

1408
00:53:37,990 --> 00:53:37,200
that or not but it's it's getting really

1409
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,000
ugly

1410
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,280
while

1411
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:44,319
uh it's

1412
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:48,400
uh you know it's kind of sad

1413
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:52,400
uh and there are good people there

1414
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:55,599
and there are people that when

1415
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:58,000
we can get to the point where we can

1416
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:59,040
drain the swamp

1417
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,880
of ufology they will come over and

1418
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:02,400
listen to us

1419
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,240
i'm not sure they'll agree but they'll

1420
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:06,480
listen and they'll

1421
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:10,400
um they maybe contribute uh

1422
00:54:14,069 --> 00:54:12,559
so because what we're dealing with here

1423
00:54:15,750 --> 00:54:14,079
is something for which we have no

1424
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:15,760
scientific paradigm

1425
00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:19,280
we don't uh have the usual sort of

1426
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:25,910
it's wide open and we need the smartest

1427
00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:27,119
people we can get

1428
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:30,720
to contribute agreed

1429
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:33,040
now can you give the uh the listening

1430
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:35,200
audience your blog and

1431
00:54:39,190 --> 00:54:38,079
um all that information please sure well

1432
00:54:44,190 --> 00:54:39,200
i have a blog called

1433
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:44,200
uh dream of the open channel and it's at

1434
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:46,319
disownedsky.blogspot.com uh there's a

1435
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:47,040
link to it

1436
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:50,319
at my podcast webpage which is

1437
00:54:57,270 --> 00:54:53,520
wow signal podcast

1438
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:57,280
dot com and uh

1439
00:55:01,829 --> 00:54:59,680
i'm also a member of aerial phenomena

1440
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:01,839
investigations which is ariel

1441
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:05,599
i'm sorry ariel dash phenomenon

1442
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:08,720
org and you can go there to report a ufo

1443
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:10,720
or you can

1444
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,319
if you're interested becoming a field

1445
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:14,079
investigator

1446
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,559
we don't have a lot of slots but we

1447
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:18,160
would be interested talking to people

1448
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:19,040
who are

1449
00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:22,480
really highly motivated and um

1450
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:24,240
kind of get it you know we'll have to

1451
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:26,480
we'll have to talk to you before we can

1452
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:30,000
decide if you fit in but uh

1453
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:33,119
there's no pay but there's also no dues

1454
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:37,280
so uh yeah all right well thanks so much

1455
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,359
well thank you it's been been a pleasure

1456
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:41,280
same here well that's it for the show

1457
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:41,760
today

1458
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,760
if you missed any part of the show you

1459
00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:45,599
can catch it as a podcast

1460
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:47,520
and a whole bunch of other free podcasts

1461
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:48,799
on our website

1462
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:51,680
which is podcast ufo.com you can also

1463
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:52,960
check us

1464
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:55,920
out check out our show notes our links

1465
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:58,160
to all the stories we talked about today

1466
00:56:01,670 --> 00:56:00,160
and next week our guest will be stan

1467
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:01,680
friedman and with host

1468
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:03,599
michael lauk and i want to thank

1469
00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:05,119
everyone for helping out with the show

1470
00:56:08,309 --> 00:56:05,920
today

1471
00:56:09,109 --> 00:56:08,319
of course our guest paul carr keith

1472
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:09,119
roland

1473
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:11,440
for uh hope for producing the dark

1474
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:13,440
matter radio network

1475
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:16,640
carrie lloyd whitehouse for music peggy

1476
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:19,119
shunning for managing our facebook page

1477
00:56:23,430 --> 00:56:21,359
and remember to like us on facebook for

1478
00:56:25,349 --> 00:56:23,440
all the latest ufo news

1479
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:25,359
you can check us out next week right

1480
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:27,920
here on the dark matter radio network

1481
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:30,960
and at 9 00 pm eastern standard time and